BY HUMBLE WITNESS
I have to comment on the teacher’s pompous answer to a devotee’s sincere question posted by anon on 4/19 @ 5:10 PM under “Ravishankar’s Hankering for NPP (part 2)”. I remember going through the teacher’s training part 2, and having to debate over this course price issue. I also felt that the price of the course was a barrier to those who most “needed” the course, and I was hoping for a chance at the TTC to air my concerns and get reassurance that in fact the exorbitant cost of courses was justified. This was not allowed—instead, we were made to defend an opinion that opposed our own in a sort of group debate. How clever of them to try and get us to do our own brainwashing, and I am sure it worked on some. As for me, I became only more convinced that AoL caters to the rich and ignores the poor because rs is interested in the money, and not in rendering any kind of service.
“Q> I am a staunch follower of Art of living and have done part 1, part 2 and Sahaj Samadhi courses. I thoroughly enjoyed them and love Guruji. But I always felt the courses are expensive. I thought spiritual knowledge should be distributed at the minimal cost and it is upto the seeker to offer how much ever it pleases him/her for Guru Dakshina. There were a few other situations when I was a bit under financial pressure to donate atleast $300. This has bothered me quite a bit even though I am a philanthropist. If people are rich and can afford it, it is a different matter. Sorry for my ignorance. I am not really clear. But if you can please explain to me in detail, I would really appreciate it.”
The answer posted by the teacher on his/her blog is clearly a compilation of arguments that the teacher trainers have taught us all to parrot, and some of the arguments are misleading, silly, evasive, or simply untrue.
“Spiritual Knowledge has never been at minimal cost .. earlier you would have had to go and do Seva in an Ashram for 10-15 years before you even got a whiff of learning about meditation… Then after all that, you would give a Guru Dakshina if at all…”
Okay, so why doesn’t AoL accept service and time commitment as payment for a course? These days, volunteers are asked to pay to volunteer at an event, especially for those events where rs will be in attendance. And why pressure course participants to give a dakshina at the end of the course? I am a westerner, and I might be misunderstanding the concept, but shouldn’t Dakshina come from one’s own inspiration, and not a result of external pressures? Clearly in this argument, traditions of the past are being twisted to justify the practices of aol today. Either stick to tradition, or call it what it is—a business.
“…The Art of Living courses are typically 18-40 hours in length, assuming you are paying $300 for an approximately 25 hour course, you are paying $12 per hour which is utterly exploitative … Would you even be able to get your toilet fixed for $12 an hour? Are you not willing to spend more money on getting your mind fixed, than you would on your loo?!...”
AoL courses are typically 18 h for a part 1, and 26 h for a YES plus. And since there is a 12-person minimum for the number of course participants, we’re talking at least $140-$150 per hour. And what’s “utterly exploitative” is the fact that the volunteers and teachers who do the work don’t see any of this money. And personally, I would rather pay that money to get my toilet fixed, because at least the money would have gone to a good cause--something real and tangible and useful to me. Claiming the AoL course fixes the mind is preposterous, and as we have seen for many who have shared their experiences on this site, being involved in AoL has done quite the opposite.
“…You talk about yourself, but you do realize that there are so many teachers and an entire organisation to run which has expenses… No government, corporate, UN agency funds Art of Living. When teachers travel, they have to pay the bus/train/air fare. In our homes we have to pay telephone and electricity bills, and for the food we eat.
We have to pay for the hall rent, the rent for the audio system used on the course, etc … Many people work to make an Art of Living course happen, we have to pay them at least their expenses. There is a pretty big bill thats there at the end of the course.
$300 is peanuts to pay for a course that you know gives you so very much….”
I have been involved in every aspect of course organization from the recruiting to the accounting and everything in between. Only 25% of a part 1 course revenue is allowed to go to such expenses as the teachers’ travel, hall rental, etc. For a part 2 course, its even less—a set amount ($300) has to go to VVM for each participant, and food/lodging is a separate expense that each participant has to pay. Often, volunteers have to dip into their own wallets to make ends meet for such courses, and hosting expenses for the teacher are non-refundable. So keeping things in perspective, if one pays $300 for a part 1 course, only $75 of it is allowed to go towards all those expenses this teacher has mentioned. Where does the rest go?
“…Another thing that we wanted was that we did not want people to be obligated and pay. We charge a certain fee for a service rendered. Its nice and clean….”
I’m confused. People ARE obligated to pay if they want to take a course, aren’t they? Also, this sounds more like a business transaction to me, than a service rendered by a charitable organization.
“…Finally, if you want to buy yourself a car, a solid education, a home… at this point you dont say its too expensive do you? You take a loan and get it. An Art of Living course is on par with these big investments of life. If needed, take a loan… you know its worth it….”
So is this teacher suggesting that one who cannot afford an AoL course should take out a loan for it? I personally object to this—I have seen people in my area who do exactly that in response to the prodding and pressure to take this or that “amazing” AoL course. These people cannot afford the basic necessities, and yet are asked to beg for, borrow the money, or launch a fundraising effort to take the next AoL course, instead of being smacked back to reality and told to get their life in order before going off the deep end with these courses. Its sick. Also, I’m sorry, but an AoL course is certainly not “on par” with a solid education, a car, a home, or even a functioning toilet.
“…Finally, some of the money collected on courses is pumped back into society, it doesn’t line anyone’s pockets. It could be used to rehab prisoners, or in some disaster area, or in some war zone to help people. It could be used to help children, women, etc…”
I have yet to see a single “service project” come from the money that has been raised in my area and pumped into the AoL national/ravishankar’s bank account. In addition to courses, I have helped to organize rs’s visit to my city, and have helped raise thousands of dollars for the org. through that event. We were allowed to keep a small fraction of the profit for our city to help offset costs of future aol events, but then had to return any unspent money after one year. The only “service” that money was used for (while we still had it) was to organize more courses. On a separate occasion, when I was ready and willing to join in a trauma relief effort overseas in a war-torn area, I had to seek out my own source of funding, and apply for a grant. I was told by the aol accountant that money raised in a particular area stays in that area, and does not go toward service projects overseas. We had to do our own fundraising campaign for that. So if aol “service projects” are funded by external sources and our own fundraising efforts, then where does all the course revenue go?
“… It could also be used to take care of our full time teachers and their families whenever needed, It could also be used to build up our Ashram infrastructure so that when you come there, you can be taken better care of…
”
Really, the full-time teachers and their families are taken care of using hard-earned aol course dollars?? Do full-timers have any health insurance? Do they earn at least minimum wage for their efforts? I don’t think so. As for the ashram infrastructure, I have yet to see any improvement to the Montreal ashram after donating to that cause year after year.
“…Our idea of doing Seva is not out of an empty bowl, so that we have to go to various people to get us money so that we can do Seva....”
So I see as of late, you’ve been reaching into Nithy’s bowl to do your “seva” (sorry, I couldn’t resist).
“…Our teachers and volunteers work hard to make courses happen, a solid value is given to the participants in the course and then out of the profits that are made on the courses, our bowl are filled…. “
Yes indeed your bowl is filled by the hard work of the teachers and volunteers—the first truthful and direct statement I’ve seen.
Out of a full bowl which has been made so by dint of hard work, we do philanthropy. (Though of late, quite a few funding agencies have finally woken up to the fact that Art of Living is doing some great work and have expressed a desire to partner with us towards mutual goals… and thats a nice feeling too
I think thats quite noble,…”
I and others have yet to see any philanthropy come out of the “full bowl”. From what I can tell, anything positive that has come out of the org has come from the good intentions and inspiration of some of the duped participants who eventually wise-up and leave. And didn’t this teacher just say in the beginning that no corporate organization funds AoL? Anyway, someone should alert these funding agencies about the AoL fraud.
“… and you should feel privileged to give money to such an organization… even if it means a bit of a stretch for you….”
No thanks, I think I’d rather flush my hard-earned money down my working toilet than to give it to such an organization.
I do hope that the poor devotee who had the guts to pose his/her question was able to see through all the AoL B.S. in that teacher’s answer, and has since left the org. If not, then God Bless and good luck.
Showing posts with label Courses. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Courses. Show all posts
Thursday, April 22, 2010
Monday, March 22, 2010
A summary of my story with AoL
BY YN
I had been a part of AoL since 1998 and left it as of a few weeks ago due to what I’ve learned in this blog, others and reflection on my own experiences. I wish to share a summary of my story.
For the first five or six years I was in it, due to some fortunate happenstances, I saw AoL as a benign Neo-Hindu movement. I was in college and the teacher I had was not interested in the large-scale proselytizing that is happening today. He cut the fees lower than what was normally permissible so that students could take the basic course and didn’t explicitly push AoL but instead yoga and meditation. As he was a Sanskrit scholar and an Eastern Religions professor as well I learned what I could so I could fill in some of the gaps and get a handle on Hindu religion and culture, as much as my Western background would allow anyway. During this time I learned Sahaj and took an advanced course, and met Ravi Shankar twice. While I felt the folk close to him were pretty blissed out and the constant “Jai Guru Dev” was a little weird the experiences weren’t bad.
My biggest problem at this time with AoL was the fact that it was trying to couch itself as spiritual and not religious when in fact there were a lot of practices that were explicitly Hindu. I felt this was intellectually dishonest but as I was interested in such practices anyway it wasn’t enough to drive me away.
At this time I wasn’t a firm practitioner and after college I dropped out of AoL for about 2-3 years as I got my life in order. When I got into the group where I live now there were several differences. There is a very high student-teacher ratio here, and many more Indians. I became interested in teaching and started to work on the requirements that I could. However, instead of a focus on the practice and the teachings there was a focus on the organization. Bringing in more people and making connections with the powerful in the community were more important than discussing the teachings and their practical applications. Of course, bringing in people would also bring in more money to fund the projects that were touted on big posters.
We were encouraged to attend as many courses as possible, all described in glowing terms. I also volunteered for events that seemed to be more about bringing in money and doing feel-good award giving rather than spreading practical teachings. As my job status improved I started saving up and eventually took DSN, figuring it would be helpful for my teacher training.
In the interest of saving space (I can go into more detail if wished), DSN left me with several negative experiences. It really is training to peddle AoL and to raise money. The teacher was exceptionally good at patter and there was a lot of sleep deprivation. Due to the stress involved I did end up having several panic attacks, mostly out when I was trying to convince people to sign up for a course. A senior Atlanta teacher noticed the one that I did have in the venue and she took me out of there to calm me down. There were several processes that were helpful to me but on the whole it was an exhausting and weird experience.
After this experience I started doing the Kriya full-time and took a few other courses, Yes+, several special satsangs, knowledge series, etc. I figured that I needed to delve into the sadhana more to overcome the fear issues. After about two years of this all I really noticed was that my panic attacks were increasing and my head was getting more and more foggy. My short-term memory was getting worse. So I did research on Google and found this blog, and I’ve started cutting my ties.
I have left the Art of Living organization and I’m doing self-study to see which of the practices and knowledge points are worth preserving as I move forward on my own. I am of the opinion that while the organization is corrupt and some of the practices are dangerous there have been enough legitimate good teachings from it (or cribbed) that I can’t immediately throw out the whole thing.
I had been a part of AoL since 1998 and left it as of a few weeks ago due to what I’ve learned in this blog, others and reflection on my own experiences. I wish to share a summary of my story.
For the first five or six years I was in it, due to some fortunate happenstances, I saw AoL as a benign Neo-Hindu movement. I was in college and the teacher I had was not interested in the large-scale proselytizing that is happening today. He cut the fees lower than what was normally permissible so that students could take the basic course and didn’t explicitly push AoL but instead yoga and meditation. As he was a Sanskrit scholar and an Eastern Religions professor as well I learned what I could so I could fill in some of the gaps and get a handle on Hindu religion and culture, as much as my Western background would allow anyway. During this time I learned Sahaj and took an advanced course, and met Ravi Shankar twice. While I felt the folk close to him were pretty blissed out and the constant “Jai Guru Dev” was a little weird the experiences weren’t bad.
My biggest problem at this time with AoL was the fact that it was trying to couch itself as spiritual and not religious when in fact there were a lot of practices that were explicitly Hindu. I felt this was intellectually dishonest but as I was interested in such practices anyway it wasn’t enough to drive me away.
At this time I wasn’t a firm practitioner and after college I dropped out of AoL for about 2-3 years as I got my life in order. When I got into the group where I live now there were several differences. There is a very high student-teacher ratio here, and many more Indians. I became interested in teaching and started to work on the requirements that I could. However, instead of a focus on the practice and the teachings there was a focus on the organization. Bringing in more people and making connections with the powerful in the community were more important than discussing the teachings and their practical applications. Of course, bringing in people would also bring in more money to fund the projects that were touted on big posters.
We were encouraged to attend as many courses as possible, all described in glowing terms. I also volunteered for events that seemed to be more about bringing in money and doing feel-good award giving rather than spreading practical teachings. As my job status improved I started saving up and eventually took DSN, figuring it would be helpful for my teacher training.
In the interest of saving space (I can go into more detail if wished), DSN left me with several negative experiences. It really is training to peddle AoL and to raise money. The teacher was exceptionally good at patter and there was a lot of sleep deprivation. Due to the stress involved I did end up having several panic attacks, mostly out when I was trying to convince people to sign up for a course. A senior Atlanta teacher noticed the one that I did have in the venue and she took me out of there to calm me down. There were several processes that were helpful to me but on the whole it was an exhausting and weird experience.
After this experience I started doing the Kriya full-time and took a few other courses, Yes+, several special satsangs, knowledge series, etc. I figured that I needed to delve into the sadhana more to overcome the fear issues. After about two years of this all I really noticed was that my panic attacks were increasing and my head was getting more and more foggy. My short-term memory was getting worse. So I did research on Google and found this blog, and I’ve started cutting my ties.
I have left the Art of Living organization and I’m doing self-study to see which of the practices and knowledge points are worth preserving as I move forward on my own. I am of the opinion that while the organization is corrupt and some of the practices are dangerous there have been enough legitimate good teachings from it (or cribbed) that I can’t immediately throw out the whole thing.
Saturday, March 20, 2010
Art of Living Course or Curse?
BY HUMBLE WITNESS
My first introduction to the convoluted world of the Art of Living was through a very benign-looking “basic course” I took many years ago. There I was, surrounded by wide-eyed, innocent students like myself, each of us looking for something different. Some were there for stress-management techniques, others were there to improve their grades or become more productive at work, and still others were there to find the purpose and true meaning of their lives. There we all were, looking for different things in that same place. And by the end of the course, somehow the teacher had us all convinced that AoL and SK were the magical answer to all our problems in life and the only key to happiness. We were told we were among a select chosen few to come across this “knowledge”, and I somehow believed what I was told. I have to admit, I felt blessed, and from that space of love and gratitude, I devoted the next several years of my life, every ounce of my free time, and every penny of my savings to AoL courses—to attend them, organize them, and teach them. And in hindsight, that first course I took, which lead to all the others, turned out to be a curse that had brought so much misery, and lead me down a path that nearly destroyed my life.
Over the years that followed that first part 1, I had attended many other courses. There seemed to be a lot of pressure in my local group to attend advanced courses (part 2s, DSNs, blessings etc.). The common conception was that these courses were a “true vacation”, an opportunity for growth, or a path to enlightenment, and not to be missed, whatever the cost, especially when given in the presence of ravi shankar. If you didn't have money for the course, borrow it. If you didn't have time to take off work, make up an excuse or just go anyway. These were things people did to get to courses. Our local teachers encouraged us all to go, taking advantage of our weekly kriya gathering as an opportunity to spread the word about these “amazing opportunities”. There was an unspoken competition among peers to get all the requirements done to become a teacher. Somewhere along the way, I got swept up into the mania and dragged myself to course after course all over North America (and even in India). Somewhere deep down inside, I must have known the truth about AoL because often I would get overtaken by a sense of revulsion and anxiety as the course date approached. I truly did not want to go, and often would come close to cancelling. When I asked my teachers about these feelings, they would encourage me to go, like zombie cheerleaders, and attribute all the “negative” feelings I had to “pre-course karma”. After coming home from such courses, I would usually fall ill, and inevitably be applauded by the group for going through such “purification” and “cleansing”. It was something to almost be envied for. Once after an extended course in the Montreal ashram, held in the dead of winter, I returned home with such severe bronchitis that I needed immediate medical attention and was at risk of developing pneumonia. It took me over a month to fully recover. Only in AoL could becoming so ill be regarded as a sign of something so positive.
I was always attracted to this idea of doing “seva”, or selfless service in my community. But somewhere along the way, tens of AoL courses later, the idea got twisted, the wires in my brain got shorted, and I got convinced that the highest seva and the only one worth doing is to organize more AoL courses and recruit more people to spread the “knowledge”. And like a good little “seva warrior”, I did just that. Organizing courses and “outreach” are the true dirty-works of the organization. Any salesman would tell you that the hardest thing to do is “cold-calling,” where one introduces a product for the first time and meets with rejection most of the time. But I was trained well in DSN and TTC1 to “overcome my inhibitions”, and accept rejection, criticism, and emotional abuse. I was primed and ready to be a seva warrior and organize successful events, “come what may”. I would set the course dates, put my own money down for a venue, and then invite teachers from out-of-town. In return, I would receive their “support” and “encouragement” in the form of pressure to meet certain numbers of paid participants by certain made-up deadlines, or else they would threaten to not come at all. I did not want to lose my credibility with the people I had managed to sign up for the course, and I certainly did not want to lose the money I had to invest from my own pocket. Desperate to recruit enough people for these courses, I would make frequent announcements about the “amazing” upcoming event in our weekly satsangs, and I quickly exhausted my supply of friends (many of whom I’d lost due to my involvement with aol), and alienated myself from co-workers by attempting to recruit them and neglecting my work. I nearly lost my job for this “seva” and found justification for my actions in ravi shankar’s words “if you do my work, I’ll do yours.” Inevitably, I was stuck with both our work, and I was the only one left accountable if things failed.
If the numbers fell short, it would be my fault for not “moving with the grace”, not having enough faith, not having strong enough “sankalpa”, or not being fully open to HIS divine guidance. No matter the reason, a failure was my fault, if people didn’t sign up, the problem was always “in my mind”, and I’d be the only one left to foot the bill in case the event fell through. But when things were pulled off successfully, of course the credit would go to ravi shankar, the supreme master of the universe, our divine leader, GOD HIMSELF. I don’t know which was worse—when an attempt failed and the course had to be “postponed” (mind-you, never cancelled to let you off the hook), or when a course was “successful” and proceeded as planned. By the end of the course, inevitably, one or a few of the course participants would be “inspired” to organize the next course, and me, being the “experienced team-leader” would be asked to oversee the whole operation. On too many occasions, I felt compelled, or rather dragged into course organizing for that very reason. And yet again, I’d be the one responsible for the outcome (but only if it wasn’t successful).
Even though AoL had become an increasing drain on my time, energy, and personal and financial resources, I still aspired to become an AoL teacher. To this day, I’m not exactly sure why. Was it because I longed to make a difference in the world, convinced that sk was the answer? Was it because I wanted to be among the “chosen few” (or so I thought at the time) to spread “HIS knowledge”? Was it because so many others with whom I associated aspired to become teachers and I got swept up in the mania? The only thing I know for sure was that I was driven, and somewhere along the way, I stopped asking questions and became unaware of my own reasons for doing the things that I did. I had all those words of encouragement told to me by various AoL teachers ringing in my head. “You would make a great teacher,” they’d say, or “you should become a teacher.” When ravi shankar himself told me to become a teacher, I felt honored, and became the envy of my satsang group. And like a good little zombie, I followed through and took all the required courses.
Once I became a teacher, only one thing had changed. I still had to do all the organizing, but this time, I had no choice if I wanted to remain true to my words. I had to say “YES!” to everything, no matter how absurd the request, no matter how much energy, time, and finances it would require. I had to be in the “yes mind”—after all, I was a teacher, and preaching that very concept to my students. If an inexperienced or mentally-unstable member of the group wanted to organize a 108-person part 1 course, my answer would be “YES!”, or if he/she wanted to organize a 1,008-person event with food and music, and turn it into an intro-talk, my answer would be “YES!”, or if they wanted to invite “guruji” to our city with the promise of a stadium full of 10,008 people, the answer would be “YES!” My answer was always “YES!”, but I’d be thinking “no, No, PLEASE NOOOO!” People in the group would go off to part 2 courses and DSNs and come back with their head full of all these ill-conceived notions that they are superheroes and can do anything, and they’d have all these ambitions and plans for “growth of AoL in our city”. And being the only local teacher, inevitably, I would have to get involved in some way or other. Every course (even those that others wanted to plan or take) was truly a curse that brought more misery, and sucked me dry. AoL had become another full-time job, and the irony was that I myself, who needed most a “true vacation” (which at that time translated into a part 2 course) could not afford to take one due to lack of money or time. I lived in this sad state for years. My productivity at work declined, my relationships with friends and family became nearly non-existent, and AoL had taken over my life.
To help get me through those times, I had successfully learned the art of manipulation as an AoL teacher, and I’m ashamed to admit that I applied all the same tactics that were used to pull me into the organization to recruit others for courses and to encourage them to become teachers themselves. I held “free” events (such as weekly satsangs and “introductory workshops”) and used those as opportunities to sell courses to members in the group or members of the unsuspecting public; I’d always have students share their wonderful course experiences in front of the group to compel others to take courses, and I’d always share my own exaggerated “wonderful” and “awesome” experiences with the techniques or courses; I’d always recruit a number of “repeaters” in any part 1 course who were convinced of the value of the course to help to convince the newcomers of its value and keep the group together; I’d praise those in the group who would make “good” teachers on their skillful delivery of “the knowledge” and encourage them to become teachers themselves. The list could go on and on. Needless to say, the sum total of all these subtle manipulations were used successfully to convince myself and others to further ravi shankar’s pursuit of money, power, and god knows what else.
I recognize that at every juncture I had a choice. No one twisted my arm, and I was never forced to do anything for AoL. But it is in my nature to be agreeable, to want to do the “right thing”, to have a positive impact on those around me, to practice what I preach, to follow through with my commitments, and to take full responsibility for the impact of my words and actions on others. Normally, in real life, having these qualities might be regarded as a positive thing. But in the twisted world of AoL, they make one vulnerable the subtle manipulations, and were the very qualities that kept me slaving for the organization for many years. It was the initial realizations that many of the teachers are hypocrites, that the “trauma relief efforts” are a sham, and that sk, the “gem” of the part 1 course, is downright harmful, that helped me to see aol and rs for the fraud they truly are. And reading all of the experiences and insights that have been graciously posted on this forum have helped me to understand many of the other things that went on in the org. that seemed “not quite right”.
I have been free from AoL for several months now, and with the AoL curse behind me, I have never felt more alive, more invigorated, or more full of honest-to-god joy (not the fake-it-till-you-make-it kind)!
My first introduction to the convoluted world of the Art of Living was through a very benign-looking “basic course” I took many years ago. There I was, surrounded by wide-eyed, innocent students like myself, each of us looking for something different. Some were there for stress-management techniques, others were there to improve their grades or become more productive at work, and still others were there to find the purpose and true meaning of their lives. There we all were, looking for different things in that same place. And by the end of the course, somehow the teacher had us all convinced that AoL and SK were the magical answer to all our problems in life and the only key to happiness. We were told we were among a select chosen few to come across this “knowledge”, and I somehow believed what I was told. I have to admit, I felt blessed, and from that space of love and gratitude, I devoted the next several years of my life, every ounce of my free time, and every penny of my savings to AoL courses—to attend them, organize them, and teach them. And in hindsight, that first course I took, which lead to all the others, turned out to be a curse that had brought so much misery, and lead me down a path that nearly destroyed my life.
Over the years that followed that first part 1, I had attended many other courses. There seemed to be a lot of pressure in my local group to attend advanced courses (part 2s, DSNs, blessings etc.). The common conception was that these courses were a “true vacation”, an opportunity for growth, or a path to enlightenment, and not to be missed, whatever the cost, especially when given in the presence of ravi shankar. If you didn't have money for the course, borrow it. If you didn't have time to take off work, make up an excuse or just go anyway. These were things people did to get to courses. Our local teachers encouraged us all to go, taking advantage of our weekly kriya gathering as an opportunity to spread the word about these “amazing opportunities”. There was an unspoken competition among peers to get all the requirements done to become a teacher. Somewhere along the way, I got swept up into the mania and dragged myself to course after course all over North America (and even in India). Somewhere deep down inside, I must have known the truth about AoL because often I would get overtaken by a sense of revulsion and anxiety as the course date approached. I truly did not want to go, and often would come close to cancelling. When I asked my teachers about these feelings, they would encourage me to go, like zombie cheerleaders, and attribute all the “negative” feelings I had to “pre-course karma”. After coming home from such courses, I would usually fall ill, and inevitably be applauded by the group for going through such “purification” and “cleansing”. It was something to almost be envied for. Once after an extended course in the Montreal ashram, held in the dead of winter, I returned home with such severe bronchitis that I needed immediate medical attention and was at risk of developing pneumonia. It took me over a month to fully recover. Only in AoL could becoming so ill be regarded as a sign of something so positive.
I was always attracted to this idea of doing “seva”, or selfless service in my community. But somewhere along the way, tens of AoL courses later, the idea got twisted, the wires in my brain got shorted, and I got convinced that the highest seva and the only one worth doing is to organize more AoL courses and recruit more people to spread the “knowledge”. And like a good little “seva warrior”, I did just that. Organizing courses and “outreach” are the true dirty-works of the organization. Any salesman would tell you that the hardest thing to do is “cold-calling,” where one introduces a product for the first time and meets with rejection most of the time. But I was trained well in DSN and TTC1 to “overcome my inhibitions”, and accept rejection, criticism, and emotional abuse. I was primed and ready to be a seva warrior and organize successful events, “come what may”. I would set the course dates, put my own money down for a venue, and then invite teachers from out-of-town. In return, I would receive their “support” and “encouragement” in the form of pressure to meet certain numbers of paid participants by certain made-up deadlines, or else they would threaten to not come at all. I did not want to lose my credibility with the people I had managed to sign up for the course, and I certainly did not want to lose the money I had to invest from my own pocket. Desperate to recruit enough people for these courses, I would make frequent announcements about the “amazing” upcoming event in our weekly satsangs, and I quickly exhausted my supply of friends (many of whom I’d lost due to my involvement with aol), and alienated myself from co-workers by attempting to recruit them and neglecting my work. I nearly lost my job for this “seva” and found justification for my actions in ravi shankar’s words “if you do my work, I’ll do yours.” Inevitably, I was stuck with both our work, and I was the only one left accountable if things failed.
If the numbers fell short, it would be my fault for not “moving with the grace”, not having enough faith, not having strong enough “sankalpa”, or not being fully open to HIS divine guidance. No matter the reason, a failure was my fault, if people didn’t sign up, the problem was always “in my mind”, and I’d be the only one left to foot the bill in case the event fell through. But when things were pulled off successfully, of course the credit would go to ravi shankar, the supreme master of the universe, our divine leader, GOD HIMSELF. I don’t know which was worse—when an attempt failed and the course had to be “postponed” (mind-you, never cancelled to let you off the hook), or when a course was “successful” and proceeded as planned. By the end of the course, inevitably, one or a few of the course participants would be “inspired” to organize the next course, and me, being the “experienced team-leader” would be asked to oversee the whole operation. On too many occasions, I felt compelled, or rather dragged into course organizing for that very reason. And yet again, I’d be the one responsible for the outcome (but only if it wasn’t successful).
Even though AoL had become an increasing drain on my time, energy, and personal and financial resources, I still aspired to become an AoL teacher. To this day, I’m not exactly sure why. Was it because I longed to make a difference in the world, convinced that sk was the answer? Was it because I wanted to be among the “chosen few” (or so I thought at the time) to spread “HIS knowledge”? Was it because so many others with whom I associated aspired to become teachers and I got swept up in the mania? The only thing I know for sure was that I was driven, and somewhere along the way, I stopped asking questions and became unaware of my own reasons for doing the things that I did. I had all those words of encouragement told to me by various AoL teachers ringing in my head. “You would make a great teacher,” they’d say, or “you should become a teacher.” When ravi shankar himself told me to become a teacher, I felt honored, and became the envy of my satsang group. And like a good little zombie, I followed through and took all the required courses.
Once I became a teacher, only one thing had changed. I still had to do all the organizing, but this time, I had no choice if I wanted to remain true to my words. I had to say “YES!” to everything, no matter how absurd the request, no matter how much energy, time, and finances it would require. I had to be in the “yes mind”—after all, I was a teacher, and preaching that very concept to my students. If an inexperienced or mentally-unstable member of the group wanted to organize a 108-person part 1 course, my answer would be “YES!”, or if he/she wanted to organize a 1,008-person event with food and music, and turn it into an intro-talk, my answer would be “YES!”, or if they wanted to invite “guruji” to our city with the promise of a stadium full of 10,008 people, the answer would be “YES!” My answer was always “YES!”, but I’d be thinking “no, No, PLEASE NOOOO!” People in the group would go off to part 2 courses and DSNs and come back with their head full of all these ill-conceived notions that they are superheroes and can do anything, and they’d have all these ambitions and plans for “growth of AoL in our city”. And being the only local teacher, inevitably, I would have to get involved in some way or other. Every course (even those that others wanted to plan or take) was truly a curse that brought more misery, and sucked me dry. AoL had become another full-time job, and the irony was that I myself, who needed most a “true vacation” (which at that time translated into a part 2 course) could not afford to take one due to lack of money or time. I lived in this sad state for years. My productivity at work declined, my relationships with friends and family became nearly non-existent, and AoL had taken over my life.
To help get me through those times, I had successfully learned the art of manipulation as an AoL teacher, and I’m ashamed to admit that I applied all the same tactics that were used to pull me into the organization to recruit others for courses and to encourage them to become teachers themselves. I held “free” events (such as weekly satsangs and “introductory workshops”) and used those as opportunities to sell courses to members in the group or members of the unsuspecting public; I’d always have students share their wonderful course experiences in front of the group to compel others to take courses, and I’d always share my own exaggerated “wonderful” and “awesome” experiences with the techniques or courses; I’d always recruit a number of “repeaters” in any part 1 course who were convinced of the value of the course to help to convince the newcomers of its value and keep the group together; I’d praise those in the group who would make “good” teachers on their skillful delivery of “the knowledge” and encourage them to become teachers themselves. The list could go on and on. Needless to say, the sum total of all these subtle manipulations were used successfully to convince myself and others to further ravi shankar’s pursuit of money, power, and god knows what else.
I recognize that at every juncture I had a choice. No one twisted my arm, and I was never forced to do anything for AoL. But it is in my nature to be agreeable, to want to do the “right thing”, to have a positive impact on those around me, to practice what I preach, to follow through with my commitments, and to take full responsibility for the impact of my words and actions on others. Normally, in real life, having these qualities might be regarded as a positive thing. But in the twisted world of AoL, they make one vulnerable the subtle manipulations, and were the very qualities that kept me slaving for the organization for many years. It was the initial realizations that many of the teachers are hypocrites, that the “trauma relief efforts” are a sham, and that sk, the “gem” of the part 1 course, is downright harmful, that helped me to see aol and rs for the fraud they truly are. And reading all of the experiences and insights that have been graciously posted on this forum have helped me to understand many of the other things that went on in the org. that seemed “not quite right”.
I have been free from AoL for several months now, and with the AoL curse behind me, I have never felt more alive, more invigorated, or more full of honest-to-god joy (not the fake-it-till-you-make-it kind)!
Friday, March 12, 2010
My experience with AoL Advanced (Part 2) course
BY PRAKASH
I attended a Part-II course of AOL conducted by Rishi Nityapragya at Noida (near Delhi) in (4th to 7th) December 2009.
There were certain things which I tried not to accept, but after reading your blog, I am forced to admit the same:
1. The course was advertised in the name of Rishi Nitya Pragya, but throughout the course duration, I could sense that involvement of Rishiji was simply not there. The course began each day from 6 AM and ended at 10 PM in the night. During this period, Rishiji used to be with us only from 11 AM to 1 PM. Then he would come at 9 PM in Satsang.
2. During his discourses, he infact pointedly remarked (which was in quite bad taste) that people should not say that Rishiji is not coming. One should stop complaining.
Why? Is commitment nothing?
Infact the support staff carried the programme with far greater sincerity than Rishiji.
3. At the end of the course, Rishiji litrally shouted on one of the participant in an extremely humiliating manner.
He used to say that he has been teaching Part-2 course since last 7 years.
I could not help in thinking that being a teacher of the course and that too from last 7 years when he cannot control his anger on trivial issues, what benefit will us mere mortals will have?
I attended a Part-II course of AOL conducted by Rishi Nityapragya at Noida (near Delhi) in (4th to 7th) December 2009.
There were certain things which I tried not to accept, but after reading your blog, I am forced to admit the same:
1. The course was advertised in the name of Rishi Nitya Pragya, but throughout the course duration, I could sense that involvement of Rishiji was simply not there. The course began each day from 6 AM and ended at 10 PM in the night. During this period, Rishiji used to be with us only from 11 AM to 1 PM. Then he would come at 9 PM in Satsang.
2. During his discourses, he infact pointedly remarked (which was in quite bad taste) that people should not say that Rishiji is not coming. One should stop complaining.
Why? Is commitment nothing?
Infact the support staff carried the programme with far greater sincerity than Rishiji.
3. At the end of the course, Rishiji litrally shouted on one of the participant in an extremely humiliating manner.
He used to say that he has been teaching Part-2 course since last 7 years.
I could not help in thinking that being a teacher of the course and that too from last 7 years when he cannot control his anger on trivial issues, what benefit will us mere mortals will have?
Saturday, March 6, 2010
Advanced economics for the Shankarly inclined
BY ND, MAHARASHTRA STATE,INDIA
Two years after my first basic course, I went to Bangalore for a Special Advanced course with Guruji. Our basic course teachers described the Bangalore Ashram as heaven, a special divine place on earth, and urged us to visit it as soon as possible. (In India special courses are held between April and July in different states. Since the states of Maharashtra and Gujarat have more followers, they have their own courses).
The fee for a 5 day course varies according to lodging – the fee/"donation" for a room for 5 people is currently Rs. 5,000.00, the cheapest being an open hall for Rs. 4,000.00. The price for a 2 person room or single room goes above Rs. 10,000.00.
Let’s consider their costs: the rooms are very simple, 5 people are squeezed in a room meant for 2, the cleaning is done by volunteers (seva), the only major cost is food. Considering the kind of food provided, the cost per person for the entire event, including other overheads, is not more than Rs. 500.00.
There were more than 2,000 people in my Advance Course. Assuming minimum payments of Rs. 5,000.00 per person, then the net revenue of the course was Rs. 4,500 x 2,000 = Rs. 9,000,000.00.
It gets more interesting. On the second day of the course, the teacher announced Sahaj Samadhi meditation would be conducted during the course: 4 days, 1 hour/day. It was spoken of it in such manner it made everyone feel they should not be missed. The teacher insisted Sudarshan Kriya + Sahaj was the best combination in the world. Hence, almost half of the course participants enrolled!
The course fee was Rs. 2,000.00. I did not feel anything different after Sahaj. In fact, I felt it could have easily been included in the advanced course, though it was Bhanudidi who taught it. (I later found out Sahaj was an imitation of Mahesh Yogi’s TM technique).
The total revenue for SSM course was Rs. 2,000 x 1,000 = Rs. 2,000,000.00 without any additional cost.
My wife even noticed the saree Bhanudidi wore and told me the price. I scolded her and asked her if she was there for knowledge or for looking at sarees and jewelries!
On the third day morning, a Nadi Vaidya (Ayurvedic doctor) came and told us how beneficial it was for us to check our health. Many people went, of course. There were 4-5 doctors. He/She held our pulse for 2 minutes and prescribed medicines to be found only at the Ayurvedic Medical stores located in the Ashram. Together with the medication, Sudarshan Kriya was also prescribed in writing.
Total cost per person: minimum Rs. 700-800. Note these medicines are not available in other stores, thus if you wanted to continue the treatment you had no choice but to get them from AoL. (Personally I find the quality of their medicines inferior).
Then there is the Divine Shop where AoL books, photos, CDs are sold. Generally, in any organization, materials published by the organization are very cheap. But in AoL, everything is very costly. Their much hyped knowledge set of Ashtravakra, Yoga Vasishta are out of reach for the common person. If you ask them why, their response is, “money is used for Seva Projects.” My question is, if knowledge is so important, shouldn’t it be offered at lowest cost? Isn’t that also seva? They don’t seem to think so.
It gets even better. On the last day of the course, after the evening Satsang, when everyone was allowed to speak again, a different Advance Course Teacher, a swami close to Ravishankar with a powerful personality, showed up on stage and asked the participants to form groups of 20-25 persons per city/area. We had to choose a leader who was asked to distribute some materials provided by them. The teacher with great brain-washing skills, spoke 80-100 minutes (a perfect brain washing experience). He explained that material was about Dharma Stambha Yojana (Religion Pillar Scheme), nothing new, for their school, village, women projects, etc. The world will transform within 3-4 years and only two type of people will be there: the ones who contributed for this cause and the others (translation: the good and the bad people). “It is your choice to which side you want to belong. Put your head and brain on hold and listen to your mind and fill the amount. Don’t postpone, do it now.” He then told us 3-4 stories about how people got monetary rewards from the Divine after giving donations. Some got new job contract, some won the lottery, etc. In other words, if you gave now, you would get 10 times more later. Most people completed the forms and committed to sending donations every month for a year. The group leader was made the monitor of the area and if anyone failed to make a payment, he would be made responsible.
My conclusion: Out of 2,000 people, more than 1,500 completed the form. If at least 33% actually paid Rs.10,000.00 per person (average) then receipts were of Rs 5,000,000.00. After completion of the year, you got renewal notice and donation form for following year.
After visiting the Ashram, I felt something was wrong. After listening to Osho’s discourses I knew what was wrong. In India, there is an old saying: charity should be done in such manner that left hand should not know what is given by right hand. So, give and forget. If you give and count, and expect rewards of monetary or non-monetary type, it is not charity, it is investment, it is greed.
I finally understood what the swami did. He was not asking for pure charity, he was sowing seeds of greed in the minds of devotees: if you give Rs.100.00, you shall get Rs.1,000.00 from the Guru. This is not taught in Indian wisdom and culture.
If I calculate the earnings of the AoL from that one Special Ashram Advance Course, the total revenue was of more than Rs. 2.5 crore. (roughly USD 0.55 million). Almost 12-16 Ashram Advance Courses are organized each year besides the "n" number of other courses.
If it were a tax paying business, no one would care where the money goes, but if you have formed a Trust and claim your income as tax free, and take donations for various seva projects, shouldn’t you disclose how much is actually being spent on which project, and how much goes to administrative expenses, salaries and personal expenses? If I have given donations for child education, I am very much concerned that it is spent only for that purpose. I would want to know if it is used for purchasing land or covering administrative expenses. Because it came from my hard earned money! But in AoL, there is no way to know.
Finally, everyone expected people in and around the Ashram to be divine. But the shopkeepers, travel agents, watchmen, fruit sellers, etc. were all normal people full of anger, lies, cheating in business, etc. Our expectations were wrong, but how were they created in the first place? If this “living God” cannot purify those in his Ashram, how can he purify the minds of the whole world?
I trusted the AoL very much and whatever I have done was with full devotion. After the DSN course I felt something was wrong but I could not put my finger on it. After returning from the Bangalore ashram, this feeling intensified. Osho’s discourse helped me realize what was wrong (I am not a Osho devotee but I find his discourse and books really good. I have found several examples of Ravishankar in Osho’s books).
I did not doubt Ravi Shankar even after that. Instead, I wrote a mail to him, describing the various things mentioned above. I was certain I would get a reply from him. But nothing came.
If everything is happening under his instruction, if he gets credit for the selfless work of the few volunteers, then he should get the blame of the wrong doings of his volunteers, misbehavior of teachers, etc.
People’s behaviors do not change only by doing Sudarshan Kriya. Many volunteers claim they have not missed Kriya one single day in the last 4-5 years - they smile. But I have seen their real nature when things don’t go their way. If a person is full of anger, jealousy and hatred after doing kriya daily for 5 years then it proves Kriya does not work.
I left the organization after two years and also required lots of healing to overcome the disappointment.
Two years after my first basic course, I went to Bangalore for a Special Advanced course with Guruji. Our basic course teachers described the Bangalore Ashram as heaven, a special divine place on earth, and urged us to visit it as soon as possible. (In India special courses are held between April and July in different states. Since the states of Maharashtra and Gujarat have more followers, they have their own courses).
The fee for a 5 day course varies according to lodging – the fee/"donation" for a room for 5 people is currently Rs. 5,000.00, the cheapest being an open hall for Rs. 4,000.00. The price for a 2 person room or single room goes above Rs. 10,000.00.
Let’s consider their costs: the rooms are very simple, 5 people are squeezed in a room meant for 2, the cleaning is done by volunteers (seva), the only major cost is food. Considering the kind of food provided, the cost per person for the entire event, including other overheads, is not more than Rs. 500.00.
There were more than 2,000 people in my Advance Course. Assuming minimum payments of Rs. 5,000.00 per person, then the net revenue of the course was Rs. 4,500 x 2,000 = Rs. 9,000,000.00.
It gets more interesting. On the second day of the course, the teacher announced Sahaj Samadhi meditation would be conducted during the course: 4 days, 1 hour/day. It was spoken of it in such manner it made everyone feel they should not be missed. The teacher insisted Sudarshan Kriya + Sahaj was the best combination in the world. Hence, almost half of the course participants enrolled!
The course fee was Rs. 2,000.00. I did not feel anything different after Sahaj. In fact, I felt it could have easily been included in the advanced course, though it was Bhanudidi who taught it. (I later found out Sahaj was an imitation of Mahesh Yogi’s TM technique).
The total revenue for SSM course was Rs. 2,000 x 1,000 = Rs. 2,000,000.00 without any additional cost.
My wife even noticed the saree Bhanudidi wore and told me the price. I scolded her and asked her if she was there for knowledge or for looking at sarees and jewelries!
On the third day morning, a Nadi Vaidya (Ayurvedic doctor) came and told us how beneficial it was for us to check our health. Many people went, of course. There were 4-5 doctors. He/She held our pulse for 2 minutes and prescribed medicines to be found only at the Ayurvedic Medical stores located in the Ashram. Together with the medication, Sudarshan Kriya was also prescribed in writing.
Total cost per person: minimum Rs. 700-800. Note these medicines are not available in other stores, thus if you wanted to continue the treatment you had no choice but to get them from AoL. (Personally I find the quality of their medicines inferior).
Then there is the Divine Shop where AoL books, photos, CDs are sold. Generally, in any organization, materials published by the organization are very cheap. But in AoL, everything is very costly. Their much hyped knowledge set of Ashtravakra, Yoga Vasishta are out of reach for the common person. If you ask them why, their response is, “money is used for Seva Projects.” My question is, if knowledge is so important, shouldn’t it be offered at lowest cost? Isn’t that also seva? They don’t seem to think so.
It gets even better. On the last day of the course, after the evening Satsang, when everyone was allowed to speak again, a different Advance Course Teacher, a swami close to Ravishankar with a powerful personality, showed up on stage and asked the participants to form groups of 20-25 persons per city/area. We had to choose a leader who was asked to distribute some materials provided by them. The teacher with great brain-washing skills, spoke 80-100 minutes (a perfect brain washing experience). He explained that material was about Dharma Stambha Yojana (Religion Pillar Scheme), nothing new, for their school, village, women projects, etc. The world will transform within 3-4 years and only two type of people will be there: the ones who contributed for this cause and the others (translation: the good and the bad people). “It is your choice to which side you want to belong. Put your head and brain on hold and listen to your mind and fill the amount. Don’t postpone, do it now.” He then told us 3-4 stories about how people got monetary rewards from the Divine after giving donations. Some got new job contract, some won the lottery, etc. In other words, if you gave now, you would get 10 times more later. Most people completed the forms and committed to sending donations every month for a year. The group leader was made the monitor of the area and if anyone failed to make a payment, he would be made responsible.
My conclusion: Out of 2,000 people, more than 1,500 completed the form. If at least 33% actually paid Rs.10,000.00 per person (average) then receipts were of Rs 5,000,000.00. After completion of the year, you got renewal notice and donation form for following year.
After visiting the Ashram, I felt something was wrong. After listening to Osho’s discourses I knew what was wrong. In India, there is an old saying: charity should be done in such manner that left hand should not know what is given by right hand. So, give and forget. If you give and count, and expect rewards of monetary or non-monetary type, it is not charity, it is investment, it is greed.
I finally understood what the swami did. He was not asking for pure charity, he was sowing seeds of greed in the minds of devotees: if you give Rs.100.00, you shall get Rs.1,000.00 from the Guru. This is not taught in Indian wisdom and culture.
If I calculate the earnings of the AoL from that one Special Ashram Advance Course, the total revenue was of more than Rs. 2.5 crore. (roughly USD 0.55 million). Almost 12-16 Ashram Advance Courses are organized each year besides the "n" number of other courses.
If it were a tax paying business, no one would care where the money goes, but if you have formed a Trust and claim your income as tax free, and take donations for various seva projects, shouldn’t you disclose how much is actually being spent on which project, and how much goes to administrative expenses, salaries and personal expenses? If I have given donations for child education, I am very much concerned that it is spent only for that purpose. I would want to know if it is used for purchasing land or covering administrative expenses. Because it came from my hard earned money! But in AoL, there is no way to know.
Finally, everyone expected people in and around the Ashram to be divine. But the shopkeepers, travel agents, watchmen, fruit sellers, etc. were all normal people full of anger, lies, cheating in business, etc. Our expectations were wrong, but how were they created in the first place? If this “living God” cannot purify those in his Ashram, how can he purify the minds of the whole world?
I trusted the AoL very much and whatever I have done was with full devotion. After the DSN course I felt something was wrong but I could not put my finger on it. After returning from the Bangalore ashram, this feeling intensified. Osho’s discourse helped me realize what was wrong (I am not a Osho devotee but I find his discourse and books really good. I have found several examples of Ravishankar in Osho’s books).
I did not doubt Ravi Shankar even after that. Instead, I wrote a mail to him, describing the various things mentioned above. I was certain I would get a reply from him. But nothing came.
If everything is happening under his instruction, if he gets credit for the selfless work of the few volunteers, then he should get the blame of the wrong doings of his volunteers, misbehavior of teachers, etc.
People’s behaviors do not change only by doing Sudarshan Kriya. Many volunteers claim they have not missed Kriya one single day in the last 4-5 years - they smile. But I have seen their real nature when things don’t go their way. If a person is full of anger, jealousy and hatred after doing kriya daily for 5 years then it proves Kriya does not work.
I left the organization after two years and also required lots of healing to overcome the disappointment.
Thursday, December 31, 2009
On DSN, by an anonymous
The following is a comment sent to the article "The Art of Acting and the Art of Marketing" by an anonymous. I found it important to post since for too many of us, many processes that happened in DSN and TTC still create noise in our heads. We knew but we could not question, we thought but we could not think differently, we felt but we could not feel ... Something was wrong with those courses, with those teachers ... with us! We were abused the entire day and were dancing at night in satsang with a big smile on our faces at night! We hated every minute of everything, but we went along because it was part of the course (not going along with it was a sign of weakness and big ego). We often thought the teacher did not make sense and was an insensitive arrogant, yet, we were all at his/her feet every day. A lot of abuse went on in these courses. Being in the "hot chair", etc. was all for your good, to get rid of your ego, when we were actually creating monsters in the name of spirituality. Anon, thank you for sharing.
I'd like to talk about my experiences at one of these DSN courses (as an attendee) this was probably 9-10 years ago and as a faithful AOL devout; this course opened my eyes into what a cult it had become. The teacher was charismatic and we all were awed by his presence. As he went on, he said a few things that made me realize that this is bordering on a cult. DSN's premise was you could take any criticisms in life after attending this course - this was based on making a person sit on a chair and have the rest of the course attendees hurl insults at you (granted they don't even know you but still).
I heard a story where a pregnant woman had a miscarriage because of domestic abuse by her husband (he kicked the newborn fetus) and she later took this course only to have someone from the class yell at her that she deserved it (the abuse, miscarriage).
My experiences weren't that horrific but they were enough to make me change tunes.
Some of the things that were done and said:
1. The teacher told an example of how one of his apprentices was being constantly pushed by his mother to get married and he responded by taking a bottle of rat poison and keeping it infront of his mother as an act of defiance - saying that if she asked him one more time to get married, he would make her drink it.
2. SSRS is God/Lord/Almighty and there is no one else.
3. The teacher lamented how the bangalore ashram at the time lacked a solar water heater and how it would be a good 'gift' to Guruji. Sure enough the next day, the class managed to get out their checkbooks and raised a princely sum of 300,00 rupees which at the time was a lot of money. I had this horrible feeling where i was sort of being pressurized to come up with a contribution and yet I came up with nothing - a very different kind of feeling to experience.
4. As part of the course, we were made to walk the streets and peddle AOL and get a lot of people to join up/ sign up so that you as an individual would fulfill your destiny. You were then mocked when you came up with nothing
5.they hurled abuses at a woman whose only sin was that her husband would not partake or support her in her AOL activities.
In the end, I lost total respect for the teacher whom I have known for a while. There's a thin line between preaching and forcing your views on someone and he crossed that line - making us believe that it is okay to forsake your own family for the greater good of AOL and that was something I could never stomach doing.
I wish I had the temerity I possess now and had done something back then. I guess that also comes with age 9-10 years is a longtime.
Good job with the blog. I have come to realize that one's own family means the most and wasting your time, money and energy on such a greedy cut-throat organization is bordering on being a cult follower/ retarded.
I'd like to talk about my experiences at one of these DSN courses (as an attendee) this was probably 9-10 years ago and as a faithful AOL devout; this course opened my eyes into what a cult it had become. The teacher was charismatic and we all were awed by his presence. As he went on, he said a few things that made me realize that this is bordering on a cult. DSN's premise was you could take any criticisms in life after attending this course - this was based on making a person sit on a chair and have the rest of the course attendees hurl insults at you (granted they don't even know you but still).
I heard a story where a pregnant woman had a miscarriage because of domestic abuse by her husband (he kicked the newborn fetus) and she later took this course only to have someone from the class yell at her that she deserved it (the abuse, miscarriage).
My experiences weren't that horrific but they were enough to make me change tunes.
Some of the things that were done and said:
1. The teacher told an example of how one of his apprentices was being constantly pushed by his mother to get married and he responded by taking a bottle of rat poison and keeping it infront of his mother as an act of defiance - saying that if she asked him one more time to get married, he would make her drink it.
2. SSRS is God/Lord/Almighty and there is no one else.
3. The teacher lamented how the bangalore ashram at the time lacked a solar water heater and how it would be a good 'gift' to Guruji. Sure enough the next day, the class managed to get out their checkbooks and raised a princely sum of 300,00 rupees which at the time was a lot of money. I had this horrible feeling where i was sort of being pressurized to come up with a contribution and yet I came up with nothing - a very different kind of feeling to experience.
4. As part of the course, we were made to walk the streets and peddle AOL and get a lot of people to join up/ sign up so that you as an individual would fulfill your destiny. You were then mocked when you came up with nothing
5.they hurled abuses at a woman whose only sin was that her husband would not partake or support her in her AOL activities.
In the end, I lost total respect for the teacher whom I have known for a while. There's a thin line between preaching and forcing your views on someone and he crossed that line - making us believe that it is okay to forsake your own family for the greater good of AOL and that was something I could never stomach doing.
I wish I had the temerity I possess now and had done something back then. I guess that also comes with age 9-10 years is a longtime.
Good job with the blog. I have come to realize that one's own family means the most and wasting your time, money and energy on such a greedy cut-throat organization is bordering on being a cult follower/ retarded.
Tuesday, December 8, 2009
Stupid or relaxed? Part 2
Struggling with my practices many years, I approached Ravishankar in different occasions about it. “Something is wrong with my sadhana, something is wrong with my mantra, there is something wrong … I don’t feel good with my practices. I don’t feel good afterwards. I don’t feel good during the day. My head is not good. My health is not good.” I don’t forget his look of disbelief and surprise. He clearly did not know what to tell me. Finally, he gave me his famous, “Keep doing it. It will change. It is an astrological moment.” To which I replied, “You call 5 consecutive years an astrological moment?”
For a devotee, catching the Guru in a clueless moment is perhaps one of the scariest situations ever.
A year after leaving the AoL, I stopped doing the kriya, the pranayamas, everything. It was a tough to stop it. I was used to it. I had been convinced I needed them to be successful and happy in life. To my surprise, I have not lost my radiance. In fact, people tell me I look so bright and a lot better! I was caught by surprise when someone told me one day, “Wow, you always look so happy, you are always so happy, what is your secret?” I did not know what to say! I was not doing any practice nor seva nor following a guru nor reading scriptures nor chanting mantras, and yet, people noticed my joy, my radiance, my good spirit. I used to reply to a comment like that, “Oh! I meditate!” or “Oh! You should do this wonderful course!” Suddenly, that day I realized, that joy, that light, that everything, is mine and only mine.
I am slowly recovering my ability to have critical thinking, of discriminating, of concentrating, of enjoying other things and not feel bad about it, of having interests of my own.
When I hear people attend Part 2 to feel relaxed, I don’t know what to say. On the one hand, I know it is true they feel relaxed, but on the other, I know they feel relaxed because of all the brain washing processes they go through. Sri Sri claims Hollow and Empty “polishes the mind”, washes away the deep impressions. What I have noticed over the years is people come out of it brain dead, agreeing with whatever previously they disagreed with, thinking they are happily relaxed. In fact, he always pushed us to get everyone to the Part 2 courses, as many as possible! “Your job (as a teacher) does not end until they do a Part 2, and then repeat it many times.” Of course, once you did the Part 2, you were programmed.
“Tip of the nose … base of the spine … the whole region from naval to throat is hollow and empty.” While people twitched and suffered, until completely hypnotized, as if under the effects of a trance, their heads became “hollow and empty”, in colloquial terms, “air heads.” You could see people’s annoyance the first days, until subdued, they walked around like zombies. After very cathartic processes of death and birth, people were put in complete silence, sitting through 3 to 4 hollow and empty, long hours of listening to that trance-like voice, reprogrammed, and then, “you may say your first word.” It was bizarre to watch people go wild after being granted the first word, actually, given back their freedom. But, their brains, our minds, already were not the same. We thought we were “cleaner”, I now know we were, literally, mentally hijacked.
It was almost funny to hear people who had hated every single moment of the course, the meditations, suddenly speak words of admiration for the whole program, in tears. It was always difficult to decide whether their joy was due to everything that we had done in the course, or that the torture was finally over. Then, still, under the seduction of the trance, we were made to watch a video in which he insists we needed to bring more people to the course, be smart, do whatever it needs to bring them - that is your seva, that is the way for you to maintain the joy you are feeling, remain in the path, surrender to the Guru. Or else, the other video in which nothing but throwing candies happen (it was apparently John’s birthday), and he only says, “Bring all your problems to me, drop them here.” Approximately 10 minutes of Radhe Govind, bad singing, stupid dancing, bad filming, corny set up, followed by people (in the tape and in the course, stimulated by the sobbing of the tape) breaking down in catharsis, in tears, and voila, damage done.
End of program (end of the programming).
I know someone who still dissociates today, as if they were still in a Part 2 but in real life - his mind tilts, freezes, checks out, even several years after having left the organization. In fact, he does not remember anything that ever happened in these courses. And believe me, he’s done tens and tens of Part 2 and 3!
For a devotee, catching the Guru in a clueless moment is perhaps one of the scariest situations ever.
A year after leaving the AoL, I stopped doing the kriya, the pranayamas, everything. It was a tough to stop it. I was used to it. I had been convinced I needed them to be successful and happy in life. To my surprise, I have not lost my radiance. In fact, people tell me I look so bright and a lot better! I was caught by surprise when someone told me one day, “Wow, you always look so happy, you are always so happy, what is your secret?” I did not know what to say! I was not doing any practice nor seva nor following a guru nor reading scriptures nor chanting mantras, and yet, people noticed my joy, my radiance, my good spirit. I used to reply to a comment like that, “Oh! I meditate!” or “Oh! You should do this wonderful course!” Suddenly, that day I realized, that joy, that light, that everything, is mine and only mine.
I am slowly recovering my ability to have critical thinking, of discriminating, of concentrating, of enjoying other things and not feel bad about it, of having interests of my own.
When I hear people attend Part 2 to feel relaxed, I don’t know what to say. On the one hand, I know it is true they feel relaxed, but on the other, I know they feel relaxed because of all the brain washing processes they go through. Sri Sri claims Hollow and Empty “polishes the mind”, washes away the deep impressions. What I have noticed over the years is people come out of it brain dead, agreeing with whatever previously they disagreed with, thinking they are happily relaxed. In fact, he always pushed us to get everyone to the Part 2 courses, as many as possible! “Your job (as a teacher) does not end until they do a Part 2, and then repeat it many times.” Of course, once you did the Part 2, you were programmed.
“Tip of the nose … base of the spine … the whole region from naval to throat is hollow and empty.” While people twitched and suffered, until completely hypnotized, as if under the effects of a trance, their heads became “hollow and empty”, in colloquial terms, “air heads.” You could see people’s annoyance the first days, until subdued, they walked around like zombies. After very cathartic processes of death and birth, people were put in complete silence, sitting through 3 to 4 hollow and empty, long hours of listening to that trance-like voice, reprogrammed, and then, “you may say your first word.” It was bizarre to watch people go wild after being granted the first word, actually, given back their freedom. But, their brains, our minds, already were not the same. We thought we were “cleaner”, I now know we were, literally, mentally hijacked.
It was almost funny to hear people who had hated every single moment of the course, the meditations, suddenly speak words of admiration for the whole program, in tears. It was always difficult to decide whether their joy was due to everything that we had done in the course, or that the torture was finally over. Then, still, under the seduction of the trance, we were made to watch a video in which he insists we needed to bring more people to the course, be smart, do whatever it needs to bring them - that is your seva, that is the way for you to maintain the joy you are feeling, remain in the path, surrender to the Guru. Or else, the other video in which nothing but throwing candies happen (it was apparently John’s birthday), and he only says, “Bring all your problems to me, drop them here.” Approximately 10 minutes of Radhe Govind, bad singing, stupid dancing, bad filming, corny set up, followed by people (in the tape and in the course, stimulated by the sobbing of the tape) breaking down in catharsis, in tears, and voila, damage done.
End of program (end of the programming).
I know someone who still dissociates today, as if they were still in a Part 2 but in real life - his mind tilts, freezes, checks out, even several years after having left the organization. In fact, he does not remember anything that ever happened in these courses. And believe me, he’s done tens and tens of Part 2 and 3!
Monday, December 7, 2009
Deepak Chopra, according to AoL
I was in the room with him the day he told us Chopra had called him to negotiate the Sudarshan Kriya. According to Ravishankar, Chopra told him they should join forces and charge a lot more for the technique, promising him more clients and fame. Ravishankar made fun of Chopra, declaring Chopra is after money and fame but he is after helping people and changing the world. Mockingly, he put Chopra down, and of course, we admired our Guru then. He told us how Chopra had been sending spies to our courses and he was now teaching our pranayamas and other processes in his workshops.
Clearly, Deepak Chopra, the loser.
I then saw Chopra at the Bangalore Ashram during the inauguration of the Mantap. Rumours about his presence spread quickly in a victorious ecstatic tone. Finally, he was there paying respect to our Guru! You see, there was a story about an astrologer telling Chopra he would be at the feet of a guru of Southern India, and that his life time mission was to surrender to this Guru. Of course, rumor also was this Guru was Sri Sri Ravishankarji and that Chopra was too arrogant to surrender to anyone. Not only did Chopra not touch Ravi’s feet on that occasion but he also left earlier. We rested our case.
When Michael Jackson died and Deepak Chopra was interviewed non-stop by Larry King and other media sources, I, for the first time asked myself the questions: Does Chopra really need more fame and wealth than what he already has? Does Chopra really need the help of Sri Sri in order to be more respected? How much does Chopra really need the Sudarshan Kriya and the blessings of Sri Sri? Chopra has evidently achieved all his results very successfully, efficiently, by his own means. Was it not then that Sri Sri needed Chopra’s name and success and not the way around? I wonder what is Chopra’s version of the story, if at all, there ever were such stories!
And then, one day, I did what we were told we should never do: read about mantras, initiations, ex TMers blogs, etc. To my surprise, I found the following:
We provide info on the bliss, primordial sound, and nighttime techniques below. If you think your head might explode (medical term) or you might otherwise come to harm by reading this, please read no further. You could, of course, just save this message without reading it until some day in the future when you want to save yourself 700 bucks or more. We absolutely do not recommend that you practice or even try these techniques. We struggle with the idea that we are doing people a disservice by providing information about something which may cause them harm. But we count it more compelling to expose the secrets and give people the dignity of making their own choices.
1986, Instructor: Deepak Chopra Bliss technique: I was instructed to put my attention briefly on the heart region before beginning regular TM, and then to allow the mantra to resonate there as I meditated. He suggested that I would feel warm flows of "soma" emanating there. During rest afterwards, I was supposed to hold awareness of the entire body -- especially the circulating soma -- in my awareness.
(www.minet.org)
The instructions of Sahaj are, “Become aware of the area of the heart, and from that region, take the mantra and let go.” Which is what makes it different from the TM practise, which instructions are to repeat the mantra all the time. According to Sri Sri, of course, Sahaj was a lot deeper than TM.
Sri Sri had stolen from Chopra and not the way around! Sahaj Samadhi was a cheap copy of Chopra’s bliss technique, which, according to testimonies, was taught during a short time because it did not go well!
Mike Myer’s movie “Love Guru” ended up being a real satire of Sri Sri and AoL. It is true Sri Sri is dying to come out in Larry King’s and Oprah’s shows. In fact, so many letters have been written to Oprah, AoL has apparently been black listed as a “sect.” It is true Sri Sri is constantly competing with Chopra, just like the Love Guru. It is true Sri Sri is constantly brown nosing VIPs, people with money, beautiful women, etc. in order to escalate. Someone in a public talk asked him once, “How come you are always surrounded by beautiful women?” (If at least he liked women, but, unfortunately, is not even the case. Publicity, it is all about marketing. Just like the car and alcohol industries use women in their commercial to boost sales, Sri Sri does not differ too much from them).
Sahaj was “borrowed” from Chopra and Chopra is instead scrutinized. Sri Sri is constantly worried about someone stealing his Sudarshan Kriya. It takes one to know another. Thanks to internet though, you can now download it FOR FREE.
I wonder what Deepak Chopra would think about all of this. In fact, I would love to have tea with him one day. Could someone set this up? Thank you.
Clearly, Deepak Chopra, the loser.
I then saw Chopra at the Bangalore Ashram during the inauguration of the Mantap. Rumours about his presence spread quickly in a victorious ecstatic tone. Finally, he was there paying respect to our Guru! You see, there was a story about an astrologer telling Chopra he would be at the feet of a guru of Southern India, and that his life time mission was to surrender to this Guru. Of course, rumor also was this Guru was Sri Sri Ravishankarji and that Chopra was too arrogant to surrender to anyone. Not only did Chopra not touch Ravi’s feet on that occasion but he also left earlier. We rested our case.
When Michael Jackson died and Deepak Chopra was interviewed non-stop by Larry King and other media sources, I, for the first time asked myself the questions: Does Chopra really need more fame and wealth than what he already has? Does Chopra really need the help of Sri Sri in order to be more respected? How much does Chopra really need the Sudarshan Kriya and the blessings of Sri Sri? Chopra has evidently achieved all his results very successfully, efficiently, by his own means. Was it not then that Sri Sri needed Chopra’s name and success and not the way around? I wonder what is Chopra’s version of the story, if at all, there ever were such stories!
And then, one day, I did what we were told we should never do: read about mantras, initiations, ex TMers blogs, etc. To my surprise, I found the following:
We provide info on the bliss, primordial sound, and nighttime techniques below. If you think your head might explode (medical term) or you might otherwise come to harm by reading this, please read no further. You could, of course, just save this message without reading it until some day in the future when you want to save yourself 700 bucks or more. We absolutely do not recommend that you practice or even try these techniques. We struggle with the idea that we are doing people a disservice by providing information about something which may cause them harm. But we count it more compelling to expose the secrets and give people the dignity of making their own choices.
1986, Instructor: Deepak Chopra Bliss technique: I was instructed to put my attention briefly on the heart region before beginning regular TM, and then to allow the mantra to resonate there as I meditated. He suggested that I would feel warm flows of "soma" emanating there. During rest afterwards, I was supposed to hold awareness of the entire body -- especially the circulating soma -- in my awareness.
(www.minet.org)
The instructions of Sahaj are, “Become aware of the area of the heart, and from that region, take the mantra and let go.” Which is what makes it different from the TM practise, which instructions are to repeat the mantra all the time. According to Sri Sri, of course, Sahaj was a lot deeper than TM.
Sri Sri had stolen from Chopra and not the way around! Sahaj Samadhi was a cheap copy of Chopra’s bliss technique, which, according to testimonies, was taught during a short time because it did not go well!
Mike Myer’s movie “Love Guru” ended up being a real satire of Sri Sri and AoL. It is true Sri Sri is dying to come out in Larry King’s and Oprah’s shows. In fact, so many letters have been written to Oprah, AoL has apparently been black listed as a “sect.” It is true Sri Sri is constantly competing with Chopra, just like the Love Guru. It is true Sri Sri is constantly brown nosing VIPs, people with money, beautiful women, etc. in order to escalate. Someone in a public talk asked him once, “How come you are always surrounded by beautiful women?” (If at least he liked women, but, unfortunately, is not even the case. Publicity, it is all about marketing. Just like the car and alcohol industries use women in their commercial to boost sales, Sri Sri does not differ too much from them).
Sahaj was “borrowed” from Chopra and Chopra is instead scrutinized. Sri Sri is constantly worried about someone stealing his Sudarshan Kriya. It takes one to know another. Thanks to internet though, you can now download it FOR FREE.
I wonder what Deepak Chopra would think about all of this. In fact, I would love to have tea with him one day. Could someone set this up? Thank you.
Sunday, November 29, 2009
Mozart vs. Freud
I've heard Ravishankar state classical music is tamasic and brings one to a space of depression. How can such statement be made when one can go high simply listening to Chopin, Mozart, Bach? Is it not the impartial observation of someone who does not understand the classical western scales and, instead, prefers the Indian dissonant scales? When Nietzsche wrote, “Life without music is a mistake”, he did not state, “Life with western classical music is a mistake”! How can one judge a culture for being less "pranic" or more sattvic than another? Is that a genuinely objective spiritual possibility or just narrow-mindedness, prejudice, cultural bias?
Therapists are regarded as bad by the AoL, however, I have known a lot of people who, without the help of a professional, would be locked up or “gone”. Some people suffer of chemical imbalance, some cannot handle circumstances alone, whatever it is, certainly, noone likes to be depressed or suffer of any personality disorder. Those very few who do choose to be in these states, of course, they need professional help too. Those who do not know how to get out of this state, of course, they need help, not discrimination. With the notion therapy is bad, a lot of AoLers feel guilty when they have the need to seek for psychological care, or when they fall into depression. People who fell into any of the two categories were made fun of, especially behind doors by SSRS himself and teachers, or out-casted, if their secret was revealed.
I unfortunately have witnessed many of these occasions in amazement and embarrassment. However, my biggest surprise was when a devotee had a psychotic breakdown and was on the verge of suicide. Desperate, against my will, I dragged him to the psychiatrist. To my surprise, when I called SSRS and described the situation, he replied, “What did the therapist say? If he does not get better tomorrow, give him Prozac.” For heaven’s sake! Everyone knows Prozac is a controversial medication used to treat depression. We had a severe case of psychosis, not depression! That day, I dropped my imposed-aversion towards psychologists. The man, still feels embarrassed about his condition and his need of a psychologist, however, he has geared all his faith towards SSRS as his key to salvation. He hides his condition by feeling SSRS favours him, and as long as this happens, noone in the AoL, will push him away or question his condition, although it is commonly said, “He is nuts, but he must have something, the Guru likes him.”
After all, it is all about being friends with the right people, though, everyone knows there is something wrong with him. Noone understands the attention SSRS gives him. Maybe because he is a pretty boy, or because his family is influential, or simply because he is, as diagnosed by SSRS, “bipolar, multiple personality, psychotic.” As Ravishankar always declared, “The nuttier the better.” Professionals urge the boy’s family to medicate him for the rest of his life. SSRS encourages him to become an AoL teacher instead!
Many cultures that once discriminated therapy are now more open and accepting of the fact some people need therapy, and even medication. There is nothing wrong with either of the two. Following SSRS's thinking, if one needs a doctor for the body, a guru for the spirit, then why should one not seek a therapist for ones psyche when it is needed?
I suspect SSRS is against the Freudian school of psychology, which has been replaced widely by cognitive therapy, counseling, etc. One cannot deny the AoL advanced courses, including TTC, are full of "cheap therapy.” There is nothing more harmful and dangerous than an untrained person performing psychological games and “counseling” others who are in a vulnerable state, especially when those “senior teachers” are unresolved nut cases themselves!
In my opinion, making therapy evil is a judgment made by SSRS based on his cultural bias and limited vision about the current world and academia. Or maybe he is afraid any therapist would be able to figure out the mechanisms of manipulation and brain washing performed in the movement, or how imbalanced the devotees are! After all, a devotee should not have a mind of its own! That would not be a sign of surrender.
(I was told Argentina is known as "the Freudian city of the world". I wonder then, what is his opinion about Argentines?).
I was recently informed by the head of the psychology department of his country of the overall worry among their professional community about the large number of patients-AoL members they are receiving, profoundly damaged psychologically, many, already in need of medication. I have heard of many doctors and psychologists diagnose some AoL teachers with some psychotic disorder, followed by the rhetorical question: “The Guru does not know?”
But, what do they know! They are only psychologists and doctors!
In AoL, when someone “flips out”, it is said they are having a “spiritual experience” or need to “get grounded”, followed by instructions such as, “eat potatoes, eat bananas, walk barefoot, do yoga, don’t eat white flour.” I know of someone who, years later, still walks, walks, walks, walks … It is either that, or go nut, but never ever seek for professional care: “Doctors don’t understand spiritual evolution. We are sensitive people. We meditate, the body processes differently.”
And then, of course, there are sad cases of people ending up in a psychiatric ward. Noone talks about it. Noone ever talks to those people again. Of course, it was their karma and the guru did everything he could to save them from it.
Therapists are regarded as bad by the AoL, however, I have known a lot of people who, without the help of a professional, would be locked up or “gone”. Some people suffer of chemical imbalance, some cannot handle circumstances alone, whatever it is, certainly, noone likes to be depressed or suffer of any personality disorder. Those very few who do choose to be in these states, of course, they need professional help too. Those who do not know how to get out of this state, of course, they need help, not discrimination. With the notion therapy is bad, a lot of AoLers feel guilty when they have the need to seek for psychological care, or when they fall into depression. People who fell into any of the two categories were made fun of, especially behind doors by SSRS himself and teachers, or out-casted, if their secret was revealed.
I unfortunately have witnessed many of these occasions in amazement and embarrassment. However, my biggest surprise was when a devotee had a psychotic breakdown and was on the verge of suicide. Desperate, against my will, I dragged him to the psychiatrist. To my surprise, when I called SSRS and described the situation, he replied, “What did the therapist say? If he does not get better tomorrow, give him Prozac.” For heaven’s sake! Everyone knows Prozac is a controversial medication used to treat depression. We had a severe case of psychosis, not depression! That day, I dropped my imposed-aversion towards psychologists. The man, still feels embarrassed about his condition and his need of a psychologist, however, he has geared all his faith towards SSRS as his key to salvation. He hides his condition by feeling SSRS favours him, and as long as this happens, noone in the AoL, will push him away or question his condition, although it is commonly said, “He is nuts, but he must have something, the Guru likes him.”
After all, it is all about being friends with the right people, though, everyone knows there is something wrong with him. Noone understands the attention SSRS gives him. Maybe because he is a pretty boy, or because his family is influential, or simply because he is, as diagnosed by SSRS, “bipolar, multiple personality, psychotic.” As Ravishankar always declared, “The nuttier the better.” Professionals urge the boy’s family to medicate him for the rest of his life. SSRS encourages him to become an AoL teacher instead!
Many cultures that once discriminated therapy are now more open and accepting of the fact some people need therapy, and even medication. There is nothing wrong with either of the two. Following SSRS's thinking, if one needs a doctor for the body, a guru for the spirit, then why should one not seek a therapist for ones psyche when it is needed?
I suspect SSRS is against the Freudian school of psychology, which has been replaced widely by cognitive therapy, counseling, etc. One cannot deny the AoL advanced courses, including TTC, are full of "cheap therapy.” There is nothing more harmful and dangerous than an untrained person performing psychological games and “counseling” others who are in a vulnerable state, especially when those “senior teachers” are unresolved nut cases themselves!
In my opinion, making therapy evil is a judgment made by SSRS based on his cultural bias and limited vision about the current world and academia. Or maybe he is afraid any therapist would be able to figure out the mechanisms of manipulation and brain washing performed in the movement, or how imbalanced the devotees are! After all, a devotee should not have a mind of its own! That would not be a sign of surrender.
(I was told Argentina is known as "the Freudian city of the world". I wonder then, what is his opinion about Argentines?).
I was recently informed by the head of the psychology department of his country of the overall worry among their professional community about the large number of patients-AoL members they are receiving, profoundly damaged psychologically, many, already in need of medication. I have heard of many doctors and psychologists diagnose some AoL teachers with some psychotic disorder, followed by the rhetorical question: “The Guru does not know?”
But, what do they know! They are only psychologists and doctors!
In AoL, when someone “flips out”, it is said they are having a “spiritual experience” or need to “get grounded”, followed by instructions such as, “eat potatoes, eat bananas, walk barefoot, do yoga, don’t eat white flour.” I know of someone who, years later, still walks, walks, walks, walks … It is either that, or go nut, but never ever seek for professional care: “Doctors don’t understand spiritual evolution. We are sensitive people. We meditate, the body processes differently.”
And then, of course, there are sad cases of people ending up in a psychiatric ward. Noone talks about it. Noone ever talks to those people again. Of course, it was their karma and the guru did everything he could to save them from it.
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